Hayley Dodd missing

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

For Chris & Margarets info - I'm listing the links you found Fossil for the various suspects face book pages.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Wombat-P ... 0405702499
This is Stephens facebook page - in the photo - he is the one helping someone else get dressed presumably for a wedding.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Megan-McKenna/739827918
This is Stephens Fiance's facebook page, which has a good close up photo of Stephens face!

I'm not able to see any sign of scarring near his left eye that Chanty suggested might be visible on the killers face, (but in fairness she says Brad Hammond was the killer).

http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Hammond/1615897276
This is Brads page, now updated with a nice face shot photo.

So we have:-

3 alleged prime suspects

1. Stephen


&

2. Brad
Here we are unable to see the left side of Brads face clearly, to look for any scarring near the left eye.

3. Jamie


Is it just me?
Does it LOOK like maybe this Jamie has some kind of permanent damage to his left eye?
Remember Chanty specified that Hayley fought back and scratched badly her attackers left eye!

Thus far!

We still need a pic of this O'Conell character!

Fossil - there's only the one convicted pedophile registered sex predator "O'connel" that Margaret refers too isn't there?

Until Brad & Wombat are convicted - they are still entitled to a "presumption of innocence" under Habeus Corpus.

It's up to police (or us) top come up with "hard evidence" and the justice system to label them anything other than persons of interest or suspects even at this stage.

I REALLY would like to see a copy of the new evidence given to Margaret, and the resultant "witness statements" that police take from the woman this week and hopefully her daughter as well.

I doubt that will be made available to us however.

Again - its about keeping things "factual" as the case progresses (An uncontaminated evidential trail).

At least it APPEARS on the surface, that things are progressing!

Cheers

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

There's another line of inquiry I'd like to follow up.
Hayley Disappeared on 29 July 1999 somewhere around lunch time or thereabouts.
According to my computers calendar, that day was a THURSDAY.

Was this during school holidays 11 years ago or a normal working day for school teachers?

Hayley was given a lift by car from Badgingarra to Winjardi road intersection, on North West Road, by a female school teacher. Correction Female Ag department worker - thanks for that correction of fact Margaret & Fossil

Questions that thus arise for me and need answers, are these.

1. If it is not school holidays - what is a female teacher doing driving along NW road during school hours in order to give Hayley a lift during what would normally be school working hours?.

2. We now know that Hammond farm where Hayley was headed - was frequented by a local MALE school teacher named O'Connel, who was subsequently charged and convicted / incarcerated as a child sex predator pedophile.

3. Are these two female and male school teacher's 'related' in any way - i.e working at the same school - in a physical relationship - sharing a farmhouse together etc?

4. Did the female teacher drop Hayley at the intersection of Winjardi & NW road - and then drive to her shared house with say later convicted pedophile local teacher O'Connel - and mention that she had just dropped a young girl walking out NW road to Hammonds farm, at the Winjardi road intersection & O'Connel then left the farm by vehicle under a pretext, to then abduct Hayley for his sexual needs?

5. Can we get a pic of O'Connels face - and look for a scar near his left eye?

Just following "another possible theory" is all - in case the Hammond Junior / Wombat theory comes apart at the seams.

This O'Connel fellow is implicated in that he is alibi for Brad Hammond (Junior)!

IS he in fact the main instigator?

Was it he and Wombat that abducted raped and murdered Hayley for example?

Just thinking about it.......

Hayley was almost at Hammonds farm and Hammond snr wasn't home, but Hammond jnr and or Wombat were.

Wombat has history raping a girl in the caravan - why in there?
Because it's private and out of sight and has a bed!
IF Hayley was abducted and they wanted to rape her - where better than the exact same place - quiet, private and has a bed, and she was almost there to the farm when last seen.

This then would account for how the pedophile O'Connell may have KNOWN about Hayley's movements (from Female school teacher who gave her the lift) and for the fact he was a known visitor at the farm and for the fact that Wombat at least has past history of rape in the caravan...!

If O'Connel was alibi for Hammond Junior......was Hammond Junior in school with Hammond the teacher indicating it wasn't school holidays? or if it was school holidays - were Hammond Junior and OConnel both present on the farm together, for example - repairing the tractor?.

If so where was Wombat and what is his Alibi.

This O'Connel teacher pedophile - figures in this in some way - just trying to put it all together.

Cheers!

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

I'm a little bit confused about info coming from Margaret and that which her daughter Toni has posted at Margaret's face book page..

to whit.

From Margaret

Re Brad hammond his alibi is O'connel the sex offender not Steven Payne (Wombat)

&
As posted by Toni at the Facebook page

The father Mark Pendleton - a former pre-primary
school teacher and who is currently serving a prison sentence for
his crimes against young children lived in the area that Hayley went
missing and was a frequent visitor to the farm where Hayley was
heading, this man was a person of interest by police but they have now d...owngraded
this to a person who will remain on the files due to the age of the
children who he committed the offences against (ie:Hayley was too
old for his sexual tendencies)!!!!

and this link showing the article about the jailing of presumably the son?
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/pedop ... -cpis.html

Pedophile's son jailed for nine years for child sex abuse
The 23-year-old son of a jailed West Australian pedophile has himself received a lengthy sentence for sexually abusing girls as young as 18 months and recording the crime.

Ryan Anthony Pendleton was sentenced to a maximum nine years and eight months jail today, with a minimum seven years and eight months before he is eligible for parole.

Pendleton, who was caught with more than 50,000 images and videos depicting serious child pornography and bestiality, pleaded guilty in the WA District Court to numerous charges of child sexual abuse and downloading child pornography.

They included 20 counts of indecent dealing, 22 counts of indecently recording the abuse, four counts of possessing child pornography, two counts of encouraging a child to engage in sexual activity and one count of sexual penetration.

He also pleaded guilty to possessing obscene articles and the unlawful possession of a laptop, whose discovery led to the detection of the child abuse.

The Perth court was told Pendleton's father, Mark Pendleton, a former pre-primary schoolteacher, was serving a 16-year sentence for abusing and indecently recording 11 girls between 1995 and 2000.

Police discovered the evidence of some of the sexual abuse by Ryan Pendleton in the videos and images he had downloaded.

They found more after a search of his house uncovered hard drives and thumb drives containing the material.

Prosecutor Genevieve Cleary called on Judge Catherine O'Brien to look at the higher end of the penalties available for such offences.

"The child pornography offences ... the child abuse squad have said some of these images are the worst they have seen," Ms Cleary said.

The court was told Pendleton was in a position of trust and had unsupervised access to three girls, aged between 18 months and five years, between November 2007 and October 2008.

Ms Cleary said Pendleton had filmed himself abusing the youngest child while she slept in her cot and groomed one by feeding her lollies and then using a lolly to get her to touch his genitals.

Judge O'Brien said Pendleton had grown into adulthood with "no moral compass" and felt rejected by his parents who were unable to cope with his behavioural problems.

He went to live with his mother when his father was jailed.

He had felt unwanted after entering foster care in his teenage years, Judge O'Brien said.

Pendleton had various fetishes including a fondness for wearing women's clothing and nappies and his offending mirrored that of his father's, she said.

Judge O'Brien said Pendleton's offending was "particularly perverse and debauched" and was not isolated.

She said "three defenceless, innocent children" had been subjected to the highest category of perversion and debauchery, as Pendleton viewed the images for his own sexual gratification.

Pendleton was in a high risk category of reoffending, with a four in 10 chance of re-offending in a 10-year period, Judge O'Brien said.

She said he had lacked insight into the effects of his offending on his victims and had exploited them.

Using a lolly to lure his victim into touching his penis was an example of how prepared he was to take advantage of the youth of the child, Judge O'Brien said.

Pendleton was sentenced to six years for sexually penetrating one of the girls, 20 months imprisonment for each count of possessing child pornography and two years on each count of indecently dealing and recording the girls, to be served concurrently.

He was fined $3,000 on each count of possessing obscene articles and given a three month term of imprisonment for unlawful possession of the laptop.

The sentence was backdated to November 28 last year.

I'm unable to reconcile in my mind the interrelationships (if any) between:-

O'Connel
Pendelton Sen
Pendelton Jnr

&

Hammond Snr
Hammond Jnr
&
Stephen "Wombat" Payne!

Maybe Fossil or Margaret or someone call fill in the story that links all these 3 criminals / sex deviates, with Hayleys disappearance and the Hammonds farm?.

It certainly IS looking like maybe some kind of criminal sex ring exists in the Badgingarra area, the way all this information is now all coming together, as a result of investigating Hayleys disappearance.

Can it ALL just be "co incidence"?

It's hard to put all the pieces of the puzzle together in any logical way, when new clues are thrown up every day!

Be interesting to know also just who the local 'justice of the peace' up that way is?

Cheers

[Fossil]

[quote][/quote]

there is only one registered convicted sex offender"

Answer yes, but there is another one on the horizon - wombat

[/b]

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

I make it, that we MAY have approaching 4 "sex offenders" to consider.

O'connell

Pendelton Snr
Pendelton Jnr

& soon

Wombat.

They appear to be increasing like Rabbits!.

OK...

Some helpful info for you i hope Fossil


This is a map of the Badgingarra area - put out by CALM & as provided by Margaret.
I suggest you save a copy and then open it with microsoft photo manager, which will then allow you to zoom in to various %ages of original size 100%, 200%, 400% etc

Next!



This is the actual 'police time line' from the investigation - obtained by Margaret via the coroners hearing documents they have lodged.

Again you can ave copies and enlarge them as described above.

Cheers!

[Fossil]

Well done SLAL.

[Fossil]

Local JPs in Badgingarra area

http://www.courts.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps ... fault.aspx

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

Great work!

Thanks for that!

See - this forum can be a great tool!

Cheers!

[Fossil]

Chanti has pointed out there will be a S&J on a rusty letterbox. Hammond Snr's full name is Stanley Keith Hammond, his ex wife's name is Julie - so there we have S&J. What we don't know is if there was a letterbox with those initials on it. Unbelievable clue Chanti - very well done!

[Fossil]

Margaret or SLAL. Could you plse point out which property was Frank Warks - which is where O'Connell lived. I recall that Margaret said it was near Wathingarra Road but I can't see that name on any of the maps - but the writing is a bit fuzzy so I may be not spotting it. Thanks

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

I sent you a copy of the maps.

I did take a quick look but this time round when i open them they aren't as clear as they were - first time - seems my eyes are going!

Hopefully you can do better.

We need to find out the first name of O'Connell and the last name of Jamie. How do we do this???? Margaret has advised she does not know the first name of O'Connell but he is a convicted sex offender, so there will be a record. Margaret do you know what state O'Connell was convicted in?

I'm thinking those details are in both Wombats Alibi and Hammonds Alibis - which best I know only Margaret can get hold of from the coroners inquest notes that the police have. If these things are publicly available and online - we should find out how we access them direct.

SLAL - are you going to contact the local JP's to ask the ? re above.

I was honestly thinking about it.....highly "irregular" and probably not the done thing, but who knows what they collectively "know" about locals - they are after all, the ones who "hear" all the evidence when local matters are dealt with by the courts. Who better to get the low down from?

Whether they would say anything that they came to know by hearing court of petty sessions matters, I don't know, but then again if they KNOW about the Hayley case and most of them must - they might be more forth coming that we imagine.

Theres 3 listed for Badgingarra, with phone numbers.

At the end of the day they are just community members - do we risk what we have to tell them in order to get cooperation going around the town within 5 minutes as the latest gossip?

If we are wrong and it gets back to Keith Hammond (Snr) - he could well seek legal redress against us.

All things to contemplate.

I do hope Margaret is comfortable with this site - the fact it isn't viewable by the public lets us work together as a team and does avoid duplication with lots of emails.

Cheers

[Fossil]

Thanks for your message SLAL, let's get on with it and stay focussed...............when you're ready Sir.

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

OK

I just have a feeling that somehow...it was Wombat and this Jamie character that Raped & killed Hayley - but I could be wrong.....

Hammond Jnr defended this girl 6 weeks before Hayleys disappearance, against Wombat...& Hammond Junior also knew Hayley from childhood - a female and friend of the family, - I can't see him participating with Wombat - who has prior form, given what we have heard.

To my mind the PRIME suspects would be OConnell - who we know was at the farm with Hammond Junior who's his alibi - both working on the tractor.

How does Oconnel get to rape and kill Hayley while defender of women Hammond Junior is with him - they are on the farm working on tractor so presumably never saw Hayley even.

But we KNOW Wombat and Jamie went to Badgingarra - they COULD have abducted her on the way home - they WERE late back to the farm that night which fits with what Chanti told us about them sitting with her body till dark, - And Hammond senior "assumed" that Hayley had met up with both Wombat and Jamie in town, or on her way back out to the farm, which is why he never raised the alarm.

It IS possible - no highly likely, that with his past form with the 16YO girl - only 6 weeks before - that Wombat & Jamie did this to Hayley, and the Hammonds' Kieth and Brad (Jnr) had no REAL knowledge of what went on - except MAYBE some "suspicions of Wombat" they never voiced to police at the time.

Who this Jamie is and his background before and since would be REALLY handy to know.

I would like to think it's as simple as Wombat and Brad did it together......but the story from Mother & Daughter 6 weeks before, just makes me think Wombat - and then the alibis for Brad and O'Connel just make me think Wombat and Jamie.

Chanty however identified Brad from his photo as the culprit BEFORE Mother & daughter came forward with this new info about Wombat. Chanty sketched a face roughly that Margaret recognized, and Margaret then produced a photo of Brad which Chanty then confirmed as the face of the killer!.

So.....

How do we get from:-

1. Brad with Oconnell on the farm all day fixing the tractor - (thus they COULD have heard the phone message from Hayley),

and

2 Wombat with Jamie - in Badgingarra all day (thus they COULD have heard the Message before they left for town & they could also have seen Hayley on the road on their way back to the farm in the afternoon).

How do we get too....either

A. Wombat (past form with Girl 6 weeks before) & Brad Jnr, together for the deed, to agree with Chantys vision / ID of Killer, in view of the alibi's.

or

B. Wombat with OConnell (Both with past form) somehow together....for the deed - in view of the Alibi's suggesting otherwise?

Or

C) O'Connell & Brad Jnr both together, Oconnell leads Brad astray, leads the rape but Brad gets fought back against by Hayley and she scratches his L eye and he bangs her head on a rock in retaliation and kills her - in order to match with Chantys vision?

Chanty says that - "two appeared to be somewhere other than where they REALLY were, at the time of the killing, according to their alibi's".

OK....

Here's my best 2 guesses at this..... Its just a couple theory's - see if you concur or poke holes in them with known info.

Scenario 1.

Wombat and Brad Jrn at the time of the trouble with 16YO Girl - I assume to be say 18-19 year old country boys - (I'm guessing they MAYBE each had a drivers license & farm ute / car or something). Being young farm lads - they know all about reproduction but haven't yet experienced it.

Wombat is first cab off the rank and "scores" with 16 YO Girl.

Despite the theatrics of defending her etc Hammond Jnr - has to subsequently listen to Wombat bragging all the time, how great it was with 16YO girl, his first conquest & he brags incessantly for weeks about it - 6 weeks in fact, until Brad Jnr is feeling decidedly the junior partner in the friendship - somehow deficient compared to his now "experienced" friend Wombat who keeps reminding him & reliving the moment and how great it was.

Then Hammond Jnr is NOT with Wombat and lo and behold, a childhood sweetheart & family friend, also 17, in Hayley, leaves a phone message - that Hammond junior hears, say at lunch time with O'connel the sex predator. Lets say they have been discussing Brads issue with Wombat bragging incessantly about scoring with 16YO Girl, and ragging on Brad Jnr for still being a virgin (and believe me that's what young lads do).

Lets say OConnel hears the message at lunch with Brad, and KNOWS that Brads a little sweet on Hayley & presumably maybe Hayleys a little sweet on Brad, (which was likely the attraction of going to the farm for Hayley all along)..... O'Connell suggests to Brad, that "now's his chance to get even with Wombat and score with Hayley", by picking her up on the road and going somewhere with her and doing the deed. Maybe O'Connell being the type he is - suggests he can come along or drive or whatever and make sure Brad gets to home base, with his experience to ensure it happens.

This way - "defender of women" Brad Jnr is now lead astray by someone with known past history/form/record for same. O'Conell goes first, "to show the lad how its done" & get his gratification, then Brad has a turn and being a little less adept and supposedly a lifelong friend and sweetheart prospect, Hayley fights back or belittles Brad, (or both) and he kills her out of shame, embarrassment, or whatever to shut her up.

Points against scenario 1 - Hammond Juniors past behavior with 16YO Girl suggests he was more a defender than protagonist with women.

Scenario 2.

Wombat with his past form and experience with 16YO girl, is driving back to the farm (with or without this Jamie fellow), and sees Hayley on the side of the road, offers her a lift - she knows him and that he's going to the Hammond farm and gets in for this reason.

Wombat MAY or may not have heard the phone message from Hayley before he left for town - maybe that's WHY he left for town, who knows.

Wombat thinks after 6 weeks since his last conquest, it's time for another and drives Hayley wherever and does the deed with or without Jamie - we don't know, and then arrives back to the farm LATE at night.

Why would Jamie be Wombats alibi, (and vice versa) if they weren't in it together?

Scenario 1 is my best guess...BECAUSE it ties in with Chantys information identifying Brad Jnr as the killer from sketch and photo.

Scenario 2 works also but ignores Chantys identification of the killer info as being Brad Jnr.
Something else to think about.

Thoughts?

I'd love to know any outcome from today's police interview with Mother of 16YO girl.

Are they now taking it seriously - planning more interviews etc?

Cheers

[Fossil]

preparing my answer to your latest post.

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

I've said it time & again - this works for me as a time line that I can scroll back n forth thru.

It allows others (if we choose to allow them access) the ability to "play catch up ball" with what we all collectively know.

It allows Margaret to watch over us and make sure we haven't got the dog by the tail and critical facts wrong and to correct us.

You seem determined to deny me the use of this valuable tool by refusing to post, for what I consider 'paranoid reasons' of your own that i don't share.

It's a shame it seems that we can no longer work together on this for this reason alone.

I am 100% determined to restrict my posts emails etc communications to this forum - if that doesn't work for you, I am very sorry & emails do NOT work for me.

This forum "works" for me and I'm NOT PREPARED to alter how I work, to suit your needs.

You contacted me thru this forum - and if our paths have to deviate again because of the forum, and your (in my opinion unfounded) concerns about the privacy of the communications in this password protected forum - well - then it is, as it must be.

I just refuse to give up such a valuable time line tool in this case.

It allows a whole TEAM of minds (4 of us at this point in time) to put their grey matter to work.

Neither you nor I have the mortgage on intelligence - I want input from all 4 team members!

I will just go back to searching for Hayley's remains under my own steam.
That remains my primary focus.
Can't make it much clearer than that!

Cheers.

[Fossil]

Oh honey...please don't speak to me like that. okokokok already - you're starting to sound really really stressed SLAL. Might be time to spend some quality time with your loved one

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

Hah - what if it's the "quality time" spent with a loved one, that's stressing me out Fossil!

That's a really good point you bring up.
I think i can maybe add something to this train of thought.
If you look at that police time line on the map - there's a series of red lines that intersect N/West Road.
There's comic type thought/fact balloons linked to the actions in town (badgingarra roadhouse purchase of drink and chips, 2 phone calls to Dongara and Hammond Farm etc).

The fact balloons run out at Winjardie road, but the red lines across NWest road continue - without comment.

They lead too (actually they work back from) the farm where the lady farmers wife left to drive to town, and saw Hayley near corner Winjardie road, shortly after being dropped off there at about say 10.45 by the Ag dept lady, who gave her the left from Badgingarra.

I think that's Why the police gave up at that point - because any other reputed sightings weren't confirmed from 2 separate sightings...so the Winjardie road sighting as from their point of view the last DEFINITE UNDISPUTABLE sightings, beyond conjecture.

As we've discussed Margaret seemed to indicate to me the Telstra worker was working on Coaling road, past Wathingarra road but that may be mistaken. Chanty seemed to confirm that Hayley was taken down Coalling road against her will in the abducters car.

So I believe that the average person walks at 4MPH. Hayley was young and fit I'd be surprised if she didn't walk at 4MPH. I'm old and fat - yet I walk on my treadmill at 4mph with a 6 degree incline.

The distance between Winjardi and Wathingarra Rd is appr 9km (google earth)


I make this only 5.4 miles.

I think it's only about 10 mins from Badgingarra to Winjardi road by car so - 10.35am depart Badgingarra Rd house, 10.45 at Winjardi road!

5.4/4 = 1.35 hours or 1 hour 21 minutes

1 hour 21 mins + 10 45 at Winjardie road puts her at Wathingarra rd at 12.06 hours!

Last witnessed (supported by plods) sighting of Hayley was at 11.30am appr near the cnr of Wathingarra Rd/NW Rd.

Allowing she walked MAYBE faster than 4MPH this COULD POSSIBLY account for her being appr near the cnr of Wathingarra Rd at approximately 1130....

IF she made it too Wathingarra road by 1206:-

The plods have discounted a witness report (Telstra employee) who said he saw Hayley at 1.05 at Wathingarra Rd. The Telstra employee seems credible to me because he was working along that area on the day and has noted the time as 1.05 so he may have a record to confirm his timeline.


That would give the "telstra employee" one whole hours time to abduct Hayley, Rape her & kill her and dispose of the body, and be back at the telstra pit on Wathingarra road, working at 1.05 when he claims to have seen her alive!

Theres a missing hour I'm afraid.

What do we know about this telstra employee? (Name, and record since 1999?).

I could for example - get my 19 year old daughter Heather who's about Hayley's frame, to "walk that same section of road" - starting at the same time Hayley was dropped off and follow her in the car, to see how long it would take her to walk to Wathingarra road as an exercise?

Maybe we can disprove the Telstra employees story?

If we can tear apartt his "sighting / alibi" maybe we can make him account for the missing one hours time in the sightings timeline. Lets face it, no "other young girl fitting Hayley's description" was going to be walking past about 1 hour AFTER Hayley should have been!

Can we get a copy of the Telstra employees witness statement?

Thoughts?

Cheers!

[Fossil]

SLAL

[Fossil]

And I am really wanting to find out the road the 2 young men were seen on - refer to last story in attached link http://www.helpfindmychild.net/hayley-dodd. I recall Margaret said she's spoken to the witness but the road he saw these guys on was not near the scene. You don't happen to know the road do you SLAL? I know the article says NW Rd but I'm sure Margaret indicated it was another rd in the end.

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

After the details about last sighting Wathingarra / NWest rod corner at 1.05 & Telstra witness & possible "1 hour 'hole' missing in the time line" between 12.06 & 1.05, I am now MUH more interested in this little plot of land.

It would be nice to know how thoroughly it was searched in July 1999? A cursory motor bike ride around the boundary?..or a detailed thorough search with a group of volunteers.

I guess what I'm saying - if there was two telstra techs working the pit and one saw Hayley & one didn't, then its unlikely they were involved unless BOTH were partners in the crime. Such a close localized spot would be very convenient for not being disturbed and disposal of the body.

If there was just the ONE telstra tech working at the pit and he acted alone?..again - close proximity and convenient spot + sufficient time for the crime.

IF however, suspects from Hammond farm involved in Hayley's disappearance, then different story.

Something else to consider.

Say Hayley has been walking for 1.5 hours approx to get from Winjardie road to Wathingarra road, She had a drink bottle in her backpack, which according to witness we THINK (logically) she would have removed to drink along the way.

Most girls i would think after 1.5 hours walking and drinking a bottle of water, would need a twinkle (too pee). Presumably she wouldn't want to do this on the side of the road. This little patch of bush has come up at JUST the right time - because it's at least another half hour to Hammond farm for a flush toilet.

So lets say Hayley wanders up this little track in the little patch of bush here for a pee, takes off the backpack presumably - drops her duds and squats and pees. Lets imagine a Dugite bites her on the butt or leg / arm whatever.
Does she know First aid?
Did she pass out/feint there somewhere in that patch of bush, and then passed away and was never found?
Another possibility, but how will any one know for sure if that spots not searched THOROUGHLY.
If it was searched thoroughly at the time = well this conjecture is 'unfounded'

I am thinking I need to search this patch of bush now = based on the time line and my conjecture UNLESS someone can convince me it was thoroughly searched at the time.

Anyone?

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

Yes Coalara road not coalling, my mistake.

She got a lift to Winjardie Road and North West Road, walked along North West Road and was last seen about 3km past the Badgingarra-Dandaragan Road corner.

You can't place too much faith in the 'accuracy' of some of the press reports.
That's a direct quote above from the article you linked. If you believed it, she walked past Hammond farm and past Coalara road and almost to Moora - because that's where Dandaragan rd corner intersects Northwest road!

So I think we can disregard that article for accuracy.
I don't know what road the guy saw the two men in the ute on!

One presumes (probably wrongly) that:-

A) The article is correct and it was NWest Rd
B) The police interviewed the guy and searched the area he pointed out.
C) The Article just got a road name wrong as to where she was last seen.

BUT.

I'd be "interested" to know if it was that little plot of land just past Wanthingarra Road.

Cheers

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

I used Miles per hour for my calcs.

4.734kilometers per hour - is the "walking speed" that google earth assumes for that section of road, to do the 8.6 kilometers in one hour 49 minutes (109 minutes) that you quote above. (8600 meters divided by 109 minutes x 60 minutes for a KM/hr speed = 4.734KM/hr).

That's well below the 4 MILES an hour I use for walking speed (frick I can swim at 4MPH if I can't walk at that speed there's something wrong).

I use just under 7KM/hr as the walking speed (4 miles per hour or about 6.65km's/hr) for my calculations.

By my calculations there's an hours hole in the timeline - time for the telstra guy to rape kill & dispose of remains IF he doesn't spend a lot of time driving.

If we go with the Google earth estimation of walking time... 10.45Am + 1 hour 49min = 12.39PM at Wathingarra rd - MUCH closer to the 1.05 reported telstra man sighting time, and also closer to the witness "near wathingarra road corner approx 1230pm sighting".

If we accept Googles much slower walk speed - it basically puts the sightings all within realms of possibility and MY 1 hour time hole - out of whack totally. It gives the telstra man no ""opportunity" UNLESS he abducted her at the time he claimed he saw her!

Hmm,

Curiouser and curiouser.

Cheers

[Fossil]

Yes Coalara road not coalling, my mistake.

She got a lift to Winjardie Road and North West Road, walked along North West Road and was last seen about 3km past the Badgingarra-Dandaragan Road corner.

I could take this article as reading the Badgingarra Rd that commences near tip site in town that goes to Dandaragan, and the plods have included this information on their map.

You can't place too much faith in the 'accuracy' of some of the press reports.
That's a direct quote above from the article you linked. If you believed it, she walked past Hammond farm and past Coalara road and almost to Moora - because that's where Dandaragan rd corner intersects Northwest road!

So I think we can disregard that article for accuracy.
I don't know what road the guy saw the two men in the ute on!

One presumes (probably wrongly) that:-

A) The article is correct and it was NWest Rd
B) The police interviewed the guy and searched the area he pointed out.
C) The Article just got a road name wrong as to where she was last seen.






Cheers

[Fossil]

I used Miles per hour for my calcs.

4.734kilometers per hour - is the "walking speed" that google earth assumes for that section of road, to do the 8.6 kilometers in one hour 49 minutes (109 minutes) that you quote above. (8600 meters divided by 109 minutes x 60 minutes for a KM/hr speed = 4.734KM/hr).

That's well below the 4 MILES an hour I use for walking speed (frick I can swim at 4MPH if I can't walk at that speed there's something wrong).

I use just under 7KM/hr as the walking speed (4 miles per hour or about 6.65km's/hr) for my calculations.





By my calculations there's an hours hole in the timeline - time for the telstra guy to rape kill & dispose of remains IF he doesn't spend a lot of time driving.

If we go with the Google earth estimation of walking time... 10.45Am + 1 hour 49min = 12.39PM at Wathingarra rd - MUCH closer to the 1.05 reported telstra man sighting time, and also closer to the witness "near wathingarra road corner approx 1230pm sighting".







I'm trying to locate info about that plot of land nr wathingarra. could well have been a public rest spot or even telstra pit.



hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Curiouser and curiouser.

Cheers

[Fossil]

if we take telstra employee 1.05pm and he's witnessed Hayley right near wathingarra rd, that brings the lunch break at hammond farm into play as well, cnamara rds; or even wathingarra rd and the hammond farm.

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

to me the centre of the universe is the area between winjardi/mcnamara rds; or even wathingarra rd and the hammond farm.

On this we are pretty much agreed.

I'm used to my treadmill walks daily - I just work with what speed I walk at (4.5 MilesP/H - not KM/hr).

I can honestly do a pretty good simulation just with Heather on the treadmill - even to the slope of the land if I knew the contours, I can program the treadmill to adjust speed and incline on the run, to duplicate the terrain & get Heather to walk that exact distance against a stop watch at varying speeds & slope.

Either way if we accept yours and Googles much slower speed (i tried it - and on a treadmill it feels like your going no where in a hurry, I'd get bored to death before I completed the 8.6 or 9 kilometers) but if we accept it for the sake of the exercise, to me it puts her NEAR the corner of Wathingarra at ~1130 - which at my speed puts her AT Wathingarra at 1206 but closer to 1230 if you use google speed.

Telstra man at 1.05....that I'm having some trouble with UNLESS as you say she stopped for a comfort stop/breather/rest somewhere BEFORE Wathingarra road (and I don't see anywhere obvious for shelter from view). IF she used that little patch of trees just PAST Wathingarra rd towards Hammond farm....well that SHOULD have been after the Telstra guy saw her...not before hence his 1.05 seems somehow "late".

Yes as you say it brings the lunchtime routine at Hammond farm into question, & it also brings Wombat Jamie return to farm into question.

You could TRY Margaret for info from the kids about usual "lunch time routine" for the farm. Without a mother / wife there ringing the dinner gong, I can't see it being a formalized / fixed hard and fast thing (unless Hammond snr is a stickler for times / breaks due to controlling labor costs) - to my mind more likely they would drop in when they finished yarding sheep or whatever & it might vary each day, but maybe not.

Would be nice to know.

Young bucks like Jamie & Wombat would they buy something take away at the roadhouse while in town or drive home to the farm for a free feed and save a few sheckles? I presume it was a day off for these two - if all the shearers were at the beach or Moora?.

You know IF the two didn't purchase anything to eat in Moora at roadhouse or tavern - then PRESUMABLY they either skipped lunch or it points to the fact they drove back toward the farm for a feed. IF they bought something for a feed in town and THEN headed for the farm would make the most sense, because that way if they never made it for lunch due to picking up Hayley it explains their ability to arrive back at the farm late at night without having dinner if we accept they picked Hayley up around sometime after 1.05PM

Any feedback to / from Margaret - with regard to the interviews & subsequent follow up?
You said you may have something on this Jamie? (PMs if you prefer).

You know.......

Something else just occurs to me...almost ALWAYS the strongest suspect is the person who last claims to have seen the missing/murdered person. This means that our telstra man should be subject of much more rigorous attention, if we follow usual police procedure in such things.
Look at how Police are concentrating their attentions on Coryne Rayneys Husband (the lawyer guy) and also the Husband of this latest mother to disappear in Perth!

Why the attention on them - as the last to see their spouses, yet Telstra mans word is just accepted because he had a work excuse to be where he was.

I'd like to know is he married? Kids?, how long? how many?, many partners? - what do his past women partners think & say about him, etc etc.....

I don't understand how he received apparently so little attention from police, when probably he should be a prime suspect if not THE prime suspect, being the last one to see her alive. I know they searched ALL the Telstra pits along that road so they MUST have had their suspicions about him using such a spot to stash a body as he would have the rod / key to lift the lids on such pits.

Maybe he's more clever than that, he WOULD have had a shovel aboard as a standard part of telstra issue tools for burying cable across gateways etc into paddocks.

This tells me he was a suspect....but he couldn't have just as easily used that patch of bush just past where he was working?

Cheers!

[Fossil]

I'm too damned scared to PM you Sir!!!

[Fossil]

I



the plods possibly would have searched the T pits anyhow, just because they were there. To not accept the T man's witness is a terrible thing. Obviously these plods were city plods - lots of people to witness others doing things and cooberated witness events, you don't often get that on country roads do you!

[Sir Laughs-A-Lot]

Fire away that's what PM's are here for.

I'd also be interested to know if the Telstra man stepped forward of his own accord. Or was it the female witness in town that sighted his ute that prompted plods to interview him.

Can't be 100% sure, but I thought he stepped forward, which tends to throw suspicion off him. Maybe that's his intent in doing so?

Needless to say, it is highly possible that Hayley got another lift to Wathingarra Rd isn't it and that 11.30 witness is a total furphy or not credible.
I think not.
Here's why I think so.

Your "twisting" what was reported as act and confirmed from 2 sources - to suit a preconceived theory.

No one reported her at Wathingarra at 1130 thats entirely YOUR "fabrication" which you then want to go ahead dismiss as a Furphy?.

No one except YOU said she was there at 11.30 to the best of my knowledge

The witness said NEAR Wathingarra road at 1130. How near we don't know. We do know if she walked as fast as I suspect she could well have been at the corner by 1206, which means she could likewise have been NEAR the corner of Wathingarra road from the point of view of a person in a car at 100 kph. When your traveling at a mile a minute, 60mph, or 100kph, Near the corner...could be one or two MILES (hence half an hours walk) away from the corner - yet to the observer in the car you were "just near the corner" which is the next thing they saw 2 minutes later or 2 minutes before.

Thats an accurate description for a car driver - which is how she was seen.

You seem so keen to refuse to believe that - every time you suggest it - you make out that she was AT the corner and the witnesses don't say that, they say NEAR the corner....a minute or two away ie a couple miles away or half an hours walk.

I'm honestly not being critical of this oversight by you - I have an advantage over you in this respect of having been physically "on site" and driven that road a few times now, such that I have a reasonable memory of it, and the descriptions of witnesses to me, in that context - make some sense.

A half hours walk is 2 minutes away - which constitutes NEAR in the context of the witnesses who were driving cars...
NEAR does not equal AT the corner.
OK I've labored that point enough - definitely I made more of it than was needed, sorry bout that - just trying hard to get us on the same page on anything.

You know what I'd really like to do?

Drive along NW road at 100kph on cruise control to maintain a consistent speed - leaving Winhjardi rd towards Wathingarra road...and have a stopwatch & paintball gun hanging out passengers window pointing at ground. Every 1 minutes shoot paint onto the ground at every mile marker.

Then do a walk test with Heather, to emulate Hayleys walk with backpack n all.

We could then mark an actual time at each mile marker...so we have an accurate timeline....mark down the sightings spots and time match them...in paint on the road.

I think bye the time Heather got out to Wathingarra road and where the telstra man was at 1.05 we might have a better idea of when or if Hayley would have got there.

As Mick Buckley did - have someone leave the farm that the chemical salesman witness who sighted her did and see where / when the two paths cross & mark that.

Whether this would introduce more error or not I don't know, but I'm thinking it would be handy to have it all set out like that on ground - maybe more clues would then become evident while actually there on the ground, where Hayley was.

I got this feeling we are still missing something important.

Cheers!

[Rev. Chris Roubis]

Looks like Butler is up to his old tricks again.

http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2010 ... rmath.html